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Post by U4IK ST8 on Jun 22, 2009 14:58:54 GMT 1
...you lost, eh, sorry. that's racing... That's racing??? You changed the rules mid race, that's not racing! Not a nice way of treating your members, I have to say... ...Did you have money riding on this race or something? You obviously can't imagine working hard to get in front of a race, only to have some rules changed mid race which makes you loose 1st spot... it would be frustrating. You don't need to have money on a race to get frustrated by rule changes. Now, I know I missed the race , apologies for that, but, rules are rules. You can't just change them in the middle(or end) of a race. You lads are serious about enforcing rules so how you can justify changing them, or bending them slightly, amazes me. Same thing happened in South City test race, when the first few cars had a pile up before T1. Admin was involved and the race was restarted, nobody was asked. I remember one person involved in the crash said "re" but nobody else said anything. I know these are fun races BUT as humbleridderen said: "if we have rules, use them. If we don´t like the rules, don´t have them!" We are always told "read rules" or "make sure you know the rules", that means nothing if rules have the possibilty to be changed at anytime, even DURING a race!
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Post by xtian on Jun 22, 2009 15:29:30 GMT 1
[quote author=u4ikst8 board=races thread=321 post=2710 time=1245679134 Now, I know I missed the race , apologies for that, but, rules are rules. You can't just change them in the middle(or end) of a race. You lads are serious about enforcing rules so how you can justify changing them, or bending them slightly, amazes me. Same thing happened in South City test race, when the first few cars had a pile up before T1. Admin was involved and the race was restarted, nobody was asked. I remember one person involved in the crash said "re" but nobody else said anything. [/quote] Excuse me but this is 100% bullnuts. who are you refering to? I was first or second, far away from the pile up. you know perfectly why we restarted, only to avoid further martyr syndroms. we VOTED for restart, I voted FOR even if I had it easy far in front of everybody. on the second start I was wiped out of the race even before turn one. I DID NOT ask for a restart even if my race had been flushed down the toilet by the first restart, I just swallowed it. seems to me that a lot of people here get anal about rules when they should apply to other but suddenly not so much when it's time to follow them. I hate this trend to accuse everybody else when you can't win. maybe you've been watching too much f1 on tv.
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Post by xtian on Jun 22, 2009 15:53:45 GMT 1
let's make one thing clear here. I spent my sunday night, not racing, not drinking in my garden with friends, but at your service to allow you to enjoy the race in the best conditions. in the split of a second, I had to take a decision to minimize the consquences of a crash on the whole race, did this eually for every racer except maybe antoher admin (scatter who's the only one penalised by this) and all in a sudden I find myself acccused of using an authority to cheat for myself ?!! guys, are you really serious? I'm beginning to understand how you drove sennboy out of his skull here:P
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Post by sennaboy on Jun 22, 2009 16:20:08 GMT 1
I'm beginning to understand how you drove sennboy out of his skull here:P
what got i to do with that? Its not my discussion this time so.......i just watching the race you know..... greets sennaboy
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Post by U4IK ST8 on Jun 22, 2009 16:23:11 GMT 1
So do you think it's normal procedure to change rules during a league race? (Fun race or not) And, no, there was no vote for a restart at South City, I just watched the replay. Towzt said: "red flag restart?" Hanziboy said: "re?" and then you said: "re" then just as restart came on screen I said: "no re ". No vote... And how would there have been a crash of the whole race? We were under SC so nobody would be going full speed. We drive around flipped/damaged cars, they reset and we race on? There was no need for a restart, as I said before, that's what the SC is for, so if there's a massive pile up we don't need to restart. People who crashed get the chance to reset and continue racing. I appreciate, like I imagine everyone else who races here does, the fact that you use your time to run these races, but can you not see where our frustration comes from? You make rules, you insist on us knowing them all and penalise us if we break them. Like DNRT getting 20sec penalty for crossing a little yellow line. But, when you decide, rules can be changed mid race? It's not a good way of running a league. Why? Because first you get this crap, and second, people looking in here will not want to join if they read that rules get changed mid race and not just on one occasion. And I know it's a fun league and I do have fun racing with everyone here, it just seems admins will do what they like in a race, change rules, break rules, etc. "seems to me that a lot of people here get anal about rules when they should apply to other but suddenly not so much when it's time to follow them." - Who might that be then? We have to play by the rules here or get penalised, why wouldn't we follow them? Can you even show where these "people" have not followed the rules? And btw, I would never accuse anyone of anything, just because I can't win, lol. I love the close clean battles. If I loose fairly, I will applaud the winner and everyone who beats me.
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Post by hanziboy on Jun 22, 2009 18:35:36 GMT 1
hi guys .. calm down please.. Xtian already apologized for his decision. And first of all there is a hell of a difference between a official race and and practice session. Like in south city ..We and only we decide a restart or not, beside the fact it is necessary. We as admin voted, I said re and xt said Re, so we had 2 votes out of 3 and we had the restart. Indeed a SC could also have solved the problem. But if the start had learned us something, then it told us it go wrong again...See next start.. and then an admin was involved and we did not restart. I was involved in the first one. But continued ...so please don't accuse us from making decisions in our profit !!! And yes you do accuse.. Also we can read between the lines...
And to refer to the real world ..if a crash is to severe during the start the race is red flagged and there is a restart, so nothing special about that decision I think.
In fact.. the fact that it went wrong AGAIN during the restart made us realize we needed extra guides to make it through the first lap. And that in fact worked out perfectly !!!
Just remember, we are normally very strong indeed on the application of the rules, and I'm sure a lot are frighted about them, But I'm also sure a lot of you are also here because we normally have fair races. And maybe if you,U4IK ST8, drove more then 1 race out of 8 of season 4, you would talk another way.
For us it is not always easy to take the right decision and it has to be taken in a split of a second. Sometimes it is not always the best for everybody..sorry for not being perfect I guess???
So I hope to see you, U4IK ST8, more on track so you would be able to make a better evaluation to... glad to be at service...I guess again.
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Post by xtian on Jun 22, 2009 18:57:46 GMT 1
no no no no no no.. I see a BIG difference between braking a rule to gain an advantage for yourself (let's say an exemple out of the blue ... crossing a yellow line, or ... that day when someone did 6 hotlaps instead of 2...) and a decision made entirely to let everyone a chance to compete. I did not BRAKE any rule, consider that I made the race one lap longer to give the competitors to compete instead of a boring very long SC finish, while people were complaining about how long it took and how boring it was. note for the future: boring = wrong / make it exciting again = wrong.
people complain when a decision is made, other would have complained if no decision had been made. who won the god**ns race anyway? I don't see him coming here to cry about the chance he had ?! or maybe you can host next week's race and deal with it, any help is more than welcome, be my guest.
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Post by humbleridderen on Jun 23, 2009 1:01:38 GMT 1
I'm not going to say anything...I was just doing as instructed. But if you wish to dump it on me, go ahead. Did you have money riding on this race or something? What? I think you completely misunderstood, what i have wrote (and i understand why) It is because i wrote " like you took the lead away from me..but that wasn´t the meaning of the sentence,,sorry..i meant the decision of the admins to start the race again took away the lead from me. (bad sentence sorry, scatter!) I don´t blame you at all. And no..i don´t get money ;D but it was a totally wrong admin decision anyway! I practice for race to get a good position, I´m not to some kind of surprise party ;D
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Post by humbleridderen on Jun 23, 2009 1:36:37 GMT 1
Hanziboy said "Just remember, we are normally very strong indeed on the application of the rules, and I'm sure a lot are frighted about them, But I'm also sure a lot of you are also here because we normally have fair races. And maybe if you,U4IK ST8, drove more then 1 race out of 8 of season 4, you would talk another way"
Hm..i think UK4... talk very clear and accurate about the things. I don´t think he has a wrong way of saying things at all. he understand exactly what i had in miind and why it is so important to keep to the rules (for the whole leagues survival). But the admins here don´t really recognice it, i can hear, from what is said.
It´s not really about my personal victory. Its more about to be cheated and the purpose of racing.
When i was in front of the race, DNRT was far behind. DNRT had earlier some accidents, which put him far behind. Then by good driving and some sc procedures he was able to come up behind me. He was just in my rear, when the last Sc call came. There was 1,5 lap remaining and i knew, that i had already won the race because the SC would last to the end of the race, So I relaxed. Then you suddenly opened up the race again because you wanted some action. I wasn´t focused on racing and i´m sure that led to that i couldn´t even drive very good and made a driving mistake that let DNRT by. I don´t care if he wins, because he is the best driver here, No doubt, but this race, it should be harder for him and i had a chance of defending. So the wrong decision to open up the race again didn´t even lead to a good fight. It was bad because we were driving confused because of the admin decision.
But the point is to keep to the rules we have or change them.
About restarting: Of course a race should not be restarted because of 1-3 admins decisions midrace. It should be written down in the rules, when a restart could take place. If you write down in the rules, that a restart can take place, if half of the field is involved in a crash..fine for me, because then it is in the rules, but if it is not in the rules, it´s so lousy to those who is good at avoiding crashes and so. So don´t change rules midway. that´s what me and UK4 say. And don´t talk about how we say it, because actually the whole thing is very simple, ..We keep to the rules and you don´t. End of discussion! Admit it ;D
Ps, Xtian was talking about people should be grateful because admins running and being at service for the server, Yes..of course, but don´t use it as a retoric weapon. Admins should also be grateful for the drivers to come to the league. No drivers, no league!
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Post by xtian on Jun 23, 2009 5:56:58 GMT 1
I understand yoru point of view and I totally agree on the importance of the relation between the organising stuff and the racer. still, DNRT had the same reasons to be out of his concentration that you did and still reacted better than you did (sorry to say). I pointed out that we are at your service not because I consider that you owe us respect, but on the contrary to insist that we as admin never turned a decision in our own advantage, or never used an "authority" for our own gain, this is what I meant. every decision we make are made in the interest of the league and general organisation, never for our own advatage or to help one particular contestant. most of our admin time is waisted trying to spot who cheated. 5 or 6 penalties for 8 people racing for 45 minutes doesn't seem fair to me. too much irregularities. and most people come up with the excuse that "they other do it, why can't I?" now what U4IK ST8 is trying to say here for me is "even the admins are cheating, why can't I ?" and I do not agree to let that pass. as a racer I don't remember I ever had to suffer a penalty myself, not because I'm an admin, but because I respect the rules. so I do not enjoy being considered a abusive cheating hypocrite.
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Post by hanziboy on Jun 23, 2009 8:03:11 GMT 1
hey ...with the summer events we wanted action. At least we are getting more action.... pity it is on the forum Just want to say, yes the races was yours to win in normal race circumstances.. and as told I will go strictly by the book on future races.. I don't expect a lot of trouble on the next one.. where the throttle is floored during the whole race. Just remember it is with a forced pitstop. On the oval this means don't cross pit exit AND pit Entrace lines !! 20 seconds is a lot here to lose. I also hope this end the discussion on the first summer event and as it seams, some furry against the admin that was growing from the South city race already... We are strictly here to pay the bills and rent a server, try to write down the rules and organize good combo's to drive. Afterwards we may review the race and go on discussions if some do or do not deserve a penalty for some misplaced actions.. And yes we are just humans to.... Also we can make a mistake and sure will in the future. But then it is up to you to point those things out to us .. preferred by e-mail.. otherwise this forum indeed does not invites you to join us. The only thing we ask is respect !!! not to us ... but to the other drivers. Drive as it were for real, as the sponsors would be watching and pull out there hair if some were messing up the body work on a stupid action or get financial penalties from the race directors for messing up others race. And go bankrupted because you think you could risk that stupid action. We are always there to listen to your thought after all the races ... just hoping that it is more than 1 in a whole season. In 3 weeks I will be on vacation .. You know for the first time, it will be nice to relax on Sunday evening
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Post by humbleridderen on Jun 23, 2009 9:56:25 GMT 1
ok, i have read, what you said. Hanziby telling he wil be keeping strictly to the rules in the future. Good! With xtian, I still have a feeling of "Relax. It´s just a practice race. So we don´t really care. let´s just have fun!" If that is the hidden feeling, then i think, you forget that those of us who search a league like this, are doing it because we don´t want to use our time on pick-up races, where there is a poor attitude in general among the drivers. We come to this league to support it to grow and have fun with good and real competion. We don´t want cheating and all that stuff. And we don´t like being mislead at all. So even there is no points and the girls are out there on the roads and such stuff, we want real races. Girls are fine before and after the race. When we race, they can prepare themselves for a party after the race. ;D ....no, serious...there is pick-up races we can go to if we like. We don´t, because we want this league to continue. So don´t take racing rules more easy because of the summer. (Another option is to change the rules a bit , so it´s more free, if that is what you want) Anoter thing... Just a thought. What penalty can an admin get to brake (break?) the rules when he is ordering illegal demands? Should he be banned from the forum or a race in one week or 2? Should Sennaboy be admin for the oval? Should the admin wash all the cars? Should he write 1000 times on the forum. "I am a cheater!"? I like the last one. because, there is an practical and psycological consequence!
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Post by hanziboy on Jun 23, 2009 11:02:28 GMT 1
..... Anoter thing... Just a thought. What penalty can an admin get to brake (break?) the rules when he is ordering illegal demands? Should he be banned from the forum or a race in one week or 2? Should Sennaboy be admin for the oval? Should the admin wash all the cars? Should he write 1000 times on the forum. "I am a cheater!"? I like the last one. because, there is an practical and psycological consequence! The admin gets no penalty for a error!! the Fact that we organize these stuff is more then enough I guess. If you want to do something for us ...use the donate button and get your name in the gold member area.. And most of all, be there. And the admin group now counts 3 members I'm not going back to 4. Sennaboy stopped being admin for a lot of reasons and i'm not starting that one over again.. cu on track with a dirty car I guess ;D ;D
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Post by humbleridderen on Jun 23, 2009 11:54:53 GMT 1
..... Anoter thing... Just a thought. What penalty can an admin get to brake (break?) the rules when he is ordering illegal demands? Should he be banned from the forum or a race in one week or 2? Should Sennaboy be admin for the oval? Should the admin wash all the cars? Should he write 1000 times on the forum. "I am a cheater!"? I like the last one. because, there is an practical and psycological consequence! The admin gets no penalty for a error!! the Fact that we organize these stuff is more then enough I guess. If you want to do something for us ...use the donate button and get your name in the gold member area.. And most of all, be there. And the admin group now counts 3 members I'm not going back to 4. Sennaboy stopped being admin for a lot of reasons and i'm not starting that one over again.. cu on track with a dirty car I guess ;D ;D Donating..no. my economy is not strong at the moment. But i am inviting people to the league and advertising for it here at www.7karat.dk/beside that i´m running 2 LFS websites and from 1 of july I will be running some danish servers as well. Just for you to get an idea of my point. Even i was joking a bit.... I don´t get your point about admin work should be an excuse not to have penalties for erratic admin decisions...it´s always good that actions have consequences..then the quality will be better. reminds me of the position of the state when they want taxes, but never give anything back, when they make mistakes.
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Post by hanziboy on Jun 23, 2009 20:56:16 GMT 1
Simple, if we would make to many errors, we would lose a lot of members.. penalty enough
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